DaveR
6 post s
16-Feb-2004
7:00 PM
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For want of a better place, this topic is a placeholder for regular Kuethe MT discussion. Post #1 : In case folks don't get around to reviewing the Reference Photos too often, I've asked Jon to post my notes there regarding MT241.
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DaveR
7 post s
16-Feb-2004
7:09 PM
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Any CWT collectors? The Magi Genii tokens, MT221, MT222, MT223, are pieces cross-collected as Civil War Store Cards. The definitive guide to store cards is George and Melvin Fuld’s, U.S. Civil War Store Cards, 2nd Edition, Quartermaster Publications, Inc., 1975. It incidentally notes that the MT’s are “assumed to be magician’s satirical pieces”. MT221 equates to Ohio 165AD-2a. MT223 equates to Ohio 165FN-11d. I expected MT222 to match the third and last remaining Magi Genii token in Fuld, Ohio 165AD-1a, but neither the obverse nor the reverse matches. The MT obverse listed in Kuethe is the same as the other two reverses of 165AD-2a and 165FN-11a. The MT reverse is identified as an Indian head with an 1863 date. The Fuld AD-1a Indian head die would have been die 1046 which has 1864 date. There are other die combinations in 165FN11 including the following candidate 1863 Indian head dies: 1018, 1019, 1021, 1022, 1036, and 1042. From the Kuethe photo, I believe it’s either the same as OH 165FN-3d Rev (1018) which is also C-N, or OH 165FN-6a Rev (1022). Does MT222 really exist? Am I missing something? If anyone has it, I’d bet the CWT Society would like to authenticate the combination. And any guess what “129374” represents?
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shemp
2 post s
16-Feb-2004
8:21 PM
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ok, I have an MT question too... I recently saw MT301 Albert Smith for sale, but is this really a magic token? I've only found references to Albert Smith as a performer at the Egyptian Hall. Nothing about him as a magician yet.
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derbydad
Founding Member
5 post s
18-Feb-2004
5:20 AM
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Regarding MT 241: I have an example with 35 stars. It is identical to the token in the reference section except for the number of stars. It appears there are a couple variations.
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flimflams
2 post s
24-Feb-2004
10:11 AM
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I have a golden tone token which reads "lucky Lyton" on one side and heads on the other. Is this a magic token ?
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DaveR
9 post s
26-Feb-2004
7:06 PM
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It may be. It's not in Kuethe, but then it could easily be more recent. Best bet is to submit a scan or photo and it may be ID'd some time.
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DaveR
11 post s
9-Mar-2004
5:36 PM
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..back on MT241 if anyone's interested. I got a copy of Kenney's 'So-Called Dollars' published in 1953, reprinted 1982 (before Hibler and Kappen). It just calls it 'Washington Dollar in Nickel' without a photo or much description - 'nothing more than a magician's token..late 19th century'. oh well.
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DaveR
17 post s
24-Apr-2004
2:18 PM
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Question on Bartl tokens: I have a token similar to MT028 in that it's a steel shell, but says CHINA instead of "Made in Japan" (I've submitted a scan to JL). It's 23.5 to 24mm in diameter. I also have an MT028 that's the same diameter. My guess is that the Keuthe listing for MT028 is a typo saying 34mm - perhaps just a repeat of the size listed for MT027? At R1, I'm guessing a few folks could verify for me.. Thanks
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DaveR
20 post s
24-May-2004
7:42 PM
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Has anyone seen a write-up on MT332 Ushers tokens? Any estimate on years issued?Looking at the obverse die varities, I've run across 6 different ones. The most distinct being one with "calif" and no copyright (earliest?), and another with no text on Saturn at all (latest?).
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flimflams
3 post s
31-Jul-2004
7:50 PM
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does anyone have any information regarding a magic token 1932 Mahama Gandi ? I can not find it in the MT tokens. thanks for your help
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immagic
Founding Member
22 post s
4-Aug-2004
6:33 PM
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the Mahatma Gandhi 1932 is part of set...please see MT116 Frank Ducrot...I have the complete set...seems to be a sort of shell set...must have been sold as some sort of magic trick....hope this helps...email me if you need more info... ---------- Jon Lerner - Scarsdale Coin
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DaveR
23 post s
3-Nov-2004
5:03 PM
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Reading the description for MT154, Haselmayer, there's a reference to Rulau-287. Anyone have an idea what Rulau book that would be from? I can't find it in the 1700-1900 token book. thanks
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immagic
Founding Member
24 post s
10-Nov-2004
8:46 PM
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1970 ish....magazine called numismatic scrapbook ---------- Jon Lerner - Scarsdale Coin
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DaveR
24 post s
15-Nov-2004
7:03 PM
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so do you know if Rulau just assigned his numbers scattered across numerous articles for the mag or were there several key issues? I'm wondering because, along with Haselmayer, there's Allyne MT0010 which is also an 1868 Liberty, but with a diameter of 39-S vs U-U. I have a non-magic 1868 Liberty shell (coronet type) that is 34-S.
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DaveR
27 post s
14-Feb-2006
7:17 PM
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Ushers The Heyl Catalog has two letters regarding the Ushers tokens. The first is interesting, in that it notes the obverse where “GOOD LUCK” is replaced by “WISHING YOU”, a variety not included in Kuethe. The second letter/article identifies 5 obverse varieties. Briefly: First, on Saturn, “Ushers Venice, cal” with no period. Has anyone seen this? Second, under Saturn, no copyright text, just the letter “C in a circle under Saturn Third, text “Venice, Cal.” with period Fourth, same, different die Fifth, nothing on Saturn, copyright text above Saturn. I haven’t seen the first, and the 3rd and 4th are not very specific, as I’ve seen 4 varieties that meet the description. To distinguish between them, I look at the point of the largest star, and where the 6 in “1936” is above. If #1 exists, I believe there are at least 7 obverse dies. Has there been any other published reference on these? Has anyone studied these? I’ve put my own notes below. If you’d like scans, let me know. OBVERSE #1 Legend on Saturn: THE USHERS VENICE CALIF Large Star points to Sagittarius: Under left leg Position of 6 to Omega/Leo: n/a, no year Outside Legend: * Wishing You * Wealth * Health * Happiness Copyright Legend: c under Saturn, clouds & 2 stars in place of copyright. Other: Oldest die?
OBVERSE #2 Legend on Saturn: None Large Star points to Sagittarius/X: Far left Position of 6 to Omega/Leo: n/a six is under Virgo Outside Legend: * Good Luck * Wealth * Health * Happiness Copyright Legend: COPYRIGHT 1936 BY THE USHERS – VENICE CALIF Other: Latest die? OBVERSE #3 Legend on Saturn: THE USHERS VENICE, CAL. Large Star points to Sagittarius: Under left leg Position of 6 to Omega/Leo: Over right Outside Legend: * Good Luck * Wealth * Health * Happiness Copyright Legend: COPYRIGHT 1936 Other: OBVERSE #4 Legend on Saturn: THE USHERS VENICE, CAL. Large Star points to Sagittarius: Under left leg Position of 6 to Omega/Leo: Over divider Outside Legend: * Good Luck * Wealth * Health * Happiness Copyright Legend: COPYRIGHT 1936 Other: Circle in field left of Happiness perhaps for hole? OBVERSE #5 Legend on Saturn: THE USHERS VENICE, CAL. Large Star points to Sagittarius: Under intersection Position of 6 to Omega/Leo: Past right Outside Legend: * Good Luck * Wealth * Health * Happiness Copyright Legend: COPYRIGHT 1936 Other: OBVERSE #6 Legend on Saturn: THE USHERS VENICE, CAL. Large Star points to Sagittarius: Under right leg Position of 6 to Omega/Leo: Over divider Outside Legend: * Good Luck * Wealth * Health * Happiness Copyright Legend: COPYRIGHT 1936 Other:
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DaveR
28 post s
9-Mar-2006
6:28 PM
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Back on MT241.. I recently picked up another MT241 and made two discoveries (for me at least). First, it was badly worn, perhaps cleaned over all surfaces with a metal brush, and it appears to be brass with only a few hints of nickel-silver plating left. I wonder if they are all plated and not solid NS. Second, one side has 38 stars, but the other has 36. The 36 is a 3rd die variety. Another feature is that “DIED14” runs together without a space. Also, the 38 star side exhibits heavy 1/2 inch long die cracks from the rim through the “N” in “BORN” and opposite it, from the rim through the “C” in “DEC”. This is a later state of the die on a 38 / 38 example, which shows only a faint crack. This would mean that the 36 star die was made (or at least used) after the 38/38 variety. I wonder where the 35 star die fits in the order issue? Given dies with 35, 36, and 38 stars, there were probably quite a number of these manufactured, so R5 might be high.
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